I love Kira Cochrane’s writing, so I was very excited to interview her about the new book she has edited: Women of the Revolution: Forty Years of Feminism. Thankfully, her answers made me like her even more.
What was the idea behind the book, Women of the Revolution: Forty Years of feminism?
I was in the office between Christmas and New Year 2010, a time when
it’s always incredibly quiet at work, doing some reading for a piece I
was writing about the first ever women’s liberation conference in the
UK, which was held in 1970. It occurred to me that it would be great
to do something big to celebrate this landmark – forty years of second
wave feminism in the UK – and that we had all the resources necessary
at the Guardian to do that. So I started, that day, to put together a
book made up from our archives, featuring interviews with people like
Germaine Greer, Naomi Wolf, Oprah Winfrey, Nawal El Saadawi, Camille
Paglia and Susie Orbach, and articles on all the most important
feminist issues. Altogether I wanted it to provide an introduction to
the movement for those coming to it fresh, and brilliant, wide-ranging
material for those who have lived and campaigned through it.
How did it come together?
It proceeded with me just trawling through our archive, reading
thousands and thousands of articles until my eyes were sore. Given the
wealth of feminist material the
Guardian has published, it was a massive task, but I really enjoyed
it. (I have come to realise that I’m a total feminist geek!)
What is your favourite article/interview in the book?
Well, like any good parent, I don’t have favourites, and there’s so
much great material: Beth Ditto on how to beat street harassment,
on online sexism, Ariel Levy writing about raunch
culture, Polly Toynbee on Spare Rib magazine, Hadley Freeman on eating
disorders, Marina Hyde on pornography, to name just a few. One
I think is as relevant today as it was when it was published 41 years
ago now, is Jill Tweedie’s piece “Why nice girls finish
last”. In it she writes that women have a “continual and largely
unconscious compulsion to be nice. Nice and kind, nice and fair, nice
and tidy. Nice. Always ready to understand the other point of view.
Always careful not to give a wrong impression”. And she warns against
the feminist movement sinking into a great heaving swamp of niceness.
I think that message is still really important, at a time when women,
as much as ever, are brought up to be
accommodating and unpushy. (Have you ever heard the word pushy used
about a man? How about bossy?).
What do women still need to achieve?
Well, you can break it down into specific issues. Equal pay, economic
equality, a fair sharing of tasks in the home, affordable childcare, political
representation, an end to street harassment, to domestic violence and
rape – and, in the meantime, a higher rape conviction rate and strong
support services for women who experience violence. But I think
we also have to recognise that the problem is structural. We live in
a society where there are hierarchies based on class, race, sexuality,
disability and many other factors. Sex is a key one of those, and if
we could create a much more equal balance of power in general I think
we’d have a society that would function much more happily for everyone.
Do you think feminism is used as a weapon against women, like when a
man doesn’t give up his seat and wants to go dutch, even on the first
date? I have a friend who hates feminism because she says it has been
used to take away men being chivalrous, and we still end up doing the
housework.
I’m pretty happy to see the back of chivalry, because it
was based on the idea of women being the weaker sex. That
doesn’t mean I want doors slammed in my face by the man who’s walking
in front of me – just that whoever reaches the door first will hold it
open, whether it’s me or him. In an equal society, I think men and
women should treat each other equally well. (Also, I’m happy to go
Dutch. I think when one partner pays for everything from the start of
a relationship, unless there’s a really good reason, that sets up a
pretty dodgy power dynamic.)
What can be done to convince women that feminism is still relevant?
Well, I think a large proportion of women are already convinced, and
you can see that in all sorts of ways. There are
the feminist protests and conferences that have taken place over the
past few years, the enormous success of Caitlin Moran’s feminist book
How to be a Woman, the extent to which feminist issues are debated in
the media and online, with women really making their voices heard about
issues that make them angry. For any woman not yet convinced, I
suppose I would just put a few questions to her. Do you
want to live in a country where only one in five MPs – the people who
make the major decisions
regarding our lives – are women? Do you want to be paid
less than your male colleagues for the same work? Do you want to live
in a country where there’s a high chance of you being raped or
sexually assaulted – and a very low chance of your attacker being
convicted on those charges? If not, feminism is for you.
Do you think it is possible for a woman to ‘have it all’?
I think what’s true is that women have made huge strides in the
workplace, but still take care of the lion’s share of tasks at home. I
do think it’s possible for everyone, men and women, to ‘have it
all’, but in order to make that happen there needs to be a real shift
in attitudes towards working hours, so that workers aren’t toiling
incredibly long hours and can have a proper shared family life. That’s
easy to say, and much harder to do. At a time of economic crisis,
especially, it’s very hard for people to feel confident in taking
their foot off the accelerator at work. So I do hope these changes
will happen, but clearly it won’t be overnight.
Women are still sexually objectified to a large degree, what do you
think of Rihanna and Lady Gaga who constantly make music videos
wearing pants and a bra? Is this a bad example? Or an example of a
women being free to do what she wants?
I really don’t like the way that women in the public eye, in their
twenties, are criticised for being ‘bad role models’ for other women
in their twenties. It just seems another stick to beat women with. I
personally think that women should wear exactly what they like – so
long as it IS what they like, that they’re following their own desires
and enjoying themselves. I think if they’re doing that, they set a
great example.
What do you hope the book will achieve?
I hope the book will get people thinking about feminism – thinking
about all the women who have fought for our rights in the past, and all that
we still have to do.
How much more do women have to achieve to be equal to men?
There’s so much, but I think the important point is that we’re getting
there in the UK. There are obstacles, and really worrying issues (like
the fact that women’s unemployment is at a 25 year high), but over the
course of time we are moving forward. It’s like a friend of mine said,
a few years ago, when there had been some notable setbacks for women:
people can try to keep us down, but it’s not like we’re actually just
going to go back into the kitchen and make them a sandwich.
What is next for you?
More articles, more books, and much more feminist research! I’m really looking
forward to it.
Thank you Kira.
[The review of the book is here.]