Tag Archives: AV arguments

Clegg AV Gaffe

Posted on by

Nick Clegg was accused of making another gaffe today, as the comments he made yesterday against Boris Johnson backfired. Clegg has accused Boris for his anti AV stance, accusing him of fighting against a system which he himself was elected under.

However Boris was elected under the SV system. Today Labour peer and electoral expert Lord Campell-Savours accused Clegg of not understanding his own system he said, ‘Nick Clegg doesn’t seem to know how the AV system he is advocating actually works’.

He continued to argue that Labour rejected AV in 1998 because it was too complicated and could produce a freak result. The SV system is designed to avoid some of the flaws of AV by making it harder for outside candidates to win. Liberal democrats have repeatedly opposed the SV system and yet now Nick Clegg is supporting it!

For arguments for and against AV, see our AV article below
http://frostmagazine.com/2011/04/av-vote-yes-or-no-reasons-for-and-against-the-alternative-vote/

AV: Vote Yes or NO; Reasons For and Against the Alternative Vote

Posted on by

I’ll be honest this AV debate has me confused and I’m usually pretty certain of where I stand on things. I started off thinking that I was going to vote no but some friends of mine made a strong case to vote yes. So I’m writing this article to help my own thought process and hopefully yours as well.

I’m not going to explain the whole system in detail. With AV instead of having just one vote you have the option but not obligation to also vote for a 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc. preference.

Reasons For and Against

Argument For – More voter choice

The main argument for AV is that it gives voters more choice. Instead of just voting for your first choice you can also indicate you’re second choice and more if you wish. This makes it more likely the candidate will achieve a majority share of the vote.  The argument goes that this will act as a stronger mandate and encourage people to get more involved in the political process.

J’s thoughts

It sounds like a good idea in theory. I imagine many voters would welcome the opportunity to add a second or more preferences to their vote.

J’s concern

Imagine a marginal constituency with the two main competitors Labour and Lib Dem. The Conservatives have no chance of winning.

A strong Labour supporter votes just for the Labour party. He ignore any other preferences because he doesn’t want the Lib Dems to win and he certainly doesn’t want to vote conservative.

A Conservative supporter votes for the Conservatives first and then because he doesn’t want Labour in he puts the Lib Dems as his second choice.

The first and second preferences count for the same and because this is a marginal constituency there is no chance of a majority with the first round of votes. Essentially the Labour supporter’s vote counts once and the Conservative supporter’s vote counts twice. (In the first round he votes conservative, in the second he votes for the lib-dems instead when the conservatives drop out.) Is this fair? AV supporters would argue it is, during any one round everyone is still voting once. I’m not so sure it is fair and this leads me on to the next point against AV.

Argument Against – All preferences have the same Weight

I’m not sure it’s right that someone’s 5th choice has the same weight as someone else’s 1st.  In fact it almost feels undemocratic. Why didn’t they just weight the vote prefences differently! i.e. a first choice counts for more than a second and a second more than a third etc… Increasingly as I write this article I can’t help thinking that the whole system is half baked and badly thought out.

Argument For – Less Tactical Voting

Pro AV supporters argue that the AV system eliminates the need for tactical voting therefore making the system fairer.

J’s thoughts

I do believe that AV will reduce the amount of tactical voting. With the current system many voters vote for parties other than the ones they support because their own parties have no chance of winning. With the AV system you can vote for both your own party (even though it won’t win) and another party as a second choice.

I think we would be kidding ourselves if we thought this would eliminate tactical voting entirely. People will always come up with elaborate ways to support their party. That said I do believe AV would help with the problem of tactical voting.

Argument Against – Time and Cost

There’s no doubt AV will take a lot longer to count (estimates suggest 5 times longer and because of this you will have to pay counters more.) There will also be costs in switching over to the new system. Overall costs have been put at £250million

J’s thoughts

At this time of austerity it does seem stupid to waste money on changing the voting system. That said of the £250 million almost £100million has already been lost on the referendum alone. We might as well spend the other £150 million if AV really is the right system but we better be damn sure.   

Argument For – Fairer and More Engaging

One of the strongest arguments against the current voting system is that people in safe seats feel disempowered. There votes ultimately mean almost nothing since the same party is always bound to win.

J’s thoughts

AV will do very little to solve this problem, safe seats will continue to remain safe. This problem is really more of an argument for proportional representation.

Argument Against – It’s Complicated! Would it Put People Off Voting

Whatever people say about this AV system it’s definitely more complicated than the current system. For me this is the biggest and probably decisive point against AV. The system is complicated.

Do I have to put a second preference? / How many prefences do I or can I put?/When does my 4th preference count? Etc.  !#$%^&*

J’s Thoughts

My biggest concern is that it might discourage people from voting. Am I being patronising? I don’t think so. People are busy and who can be bothered to go through the rules of a voting system? Are you going to vote if you don’t know how the system works. Some will but I fear some will be put off. 1 vote keeps it simple.

My Conclusion

Keep it Simple. I started off writing this article genuinely not sure which way I would vote. I’ve concluded the current system may not be perfect but AV isn’t the right replacement for us. Our democracy is strongest when we keep things simple.