Tag Archives: #take4writers

SISTER SCRIBES: JANE CABLE CATCHES UP WITH TAKE FOUR WRITERS’ LUCY AND ANGELA

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Carrying on with our catch up with last year’s Take Four Writers, today it’s the turn of Lucy Coleman and Angela Petch.

Lucy:

This year has flown by and I can’t believe it’s August already – eight months since the last of Jane Cable’s series: ‘Take Four Writers’. As we all catch up, I suspect the main theme running through our updates will be that there are never enough hours in the day. But a writer’s life is never dull, and we are blessed!

Writing as Lucy Coleman, by the end of 2019 I will have had two new books out this year with Aria Fiction, the second of which is ‘Magic Under the Mistletoe’ due out on 5 September. Set in the hamlet of Porthkerry, near Cardiff, it begins in a snowstorm. It was inspired by the heavy snowfall in December 2017, which turned much of the UK into a winter wonderland.

A new publishing contract with Boldwood Books will see the first of six novels published over the next two years, beginning with the release of ‘A Springtime to Remember’ in December 2019. The story is set in Versailles, a place that is very dear to my heart.

I’ve also recently returned to blogging and my monthly feature ‘The Happiness Factor’ covers tips on motivation and generally surviving the ups and downs of a busy life. Also fun things – interior design tips, home spa pampering, the aesthetics of your workspace if you work from home, and my best buys. A treat doesn’t need to break the bank, but it can lift the spirits.

I don’t ‘endorse’ products, but share things I’ve purchased which make me smile, or have helped me. One of my best buys recently was a back brace I wear when typing, which has taken away my spells of backache!

If you get a moment, do drop by my website https://linnbhalton.co.uk/the-happiness-factor-blog/ and check it out.

Angela:

The Tuscan Secret was published by Bookouture on June 26th, after rigorous editing. At first I panicked at the structural changes suggested. I had written this book originally in 2012 and had to reacquaint myself with the story. But then I settled and began to enjoy the challenge. Today my editor told me it has sold just shy of 10,000. I could never have imagined that figure as a self-published author. (There’s also been a knock-on sales increase of my other books).

This week I sent my first draft to my editor of the second commissioned Tuscan novel, and the editorial roundabout will again whir into action. Hopefully, what I learned from the first round will ease the process.

Downsides:

  • I’m at least half a stone heavier from spending many hours sitting in front of my laptop.
  • I am developing bad posture.
  • My hubby says my head’s in another world half the time. (It is!)

Positives:

  • I’m loving what I’m doing. There was never enough time to concentrate on my writing before. It’s fun to live in a “what-if” world.
  • I have made great new friends in the writing community.
  • I’m gaining self-belief.
  • Far from being escapist, I firmly believe that writing helps me connect more with the world.

We all know that very few authors make a mint. It would be great to have more pennies and pounds in my bank account… but money is not the only measure of happiness. Connecting with readers (even with those who give less than shining reviews) makes all those hours of being hunched over my writing; all those hours of my head feeling it’s going to burst, my eyes squinty and itching — all worth it. Hand on heart.

 

SISTER SCRIBES: JANE CABLE CATCHES UP WITH TAKE FOUR WRITERS’ JACKIE AND CLAIRE

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Everyone loved our Take Four Writers’ articles last year so I thought it would be really interesting to catch up with them. Writers lives have ups and downs, and in 2018 we shared them all. Here’s what Jackie Baldwin and Claire Dyer have been up to since – news from Lucy and Angela tomorrow.

Jackie:

Hello everyone,

This year, a big thrill has been seeing copies of ‘Perfect Dead’ in The Works shops. It never gets old going seeing my book in the wild. I stroll past ‘casually’ whilst giving it an intense stare.

2019 has been dominated by writing my third DI Farrell book, ‘Avenge the Dead.’ This is the first time I’ve had a book published with the title I originally chose! I finished the first draft in seven months this time so I’m getting quicker with each book. The plot revolves around the Criminal Bar in Dumfries where I used to practice as a solicitor so I’m drawing on personal experience in some respects but the plot and characters are wholly fictional. Honestly!

In addition to writing and the day job I’m also in the process of moving closer to Edinburgh. We’ve found a house but it needs quite a bit doing to it so trying to organise all that has been a challenge. Hopefully, we’ll be installed before my first grandchild arrives in October!

I’ve completed my structural edit for Avenge the Dead. This is probably the stage that I most enjoy where you can fix errant plot lines and even insert new characters or subplots if the mood takes you. Currently I’m working on the Line Edit which is a complete nightmare. For example, you mention the word out three times on one page and need to change two of them.

Recently, I’ve realised that writing books is a lot like having babies. You have your baby and fall madly in love, forgetting the pain. You think it would be a great idea to have another baby. You get into the labour ward and yell, ‘WHAT was I thinking?’ And repeat…

Claire:

It’s a well-known fact that the writing life is not a simple one, and it’s easy to lose hope and/or struggle with doubt and this year I’ve been battling with both these things!

However, with the help of my amazing writer support network I am back on track. I have completed a rewrite, edited another novel and started a new one.

I’ve also celebrated my son’s wedding, am working on the draft manuscript of a poetry collection due for publication in 2021 and am planning a holiday to the ever-wonderful Kalkan in Turkey.

I also have my husband’s wise words to fall back on when things get tough. He’s not a writer, and has learnt from living with one that he has to tread carefully, and part of this is to remind me gently now and again that it all depends on the lens.

Yes, writing and getting published is a challenge, BUT I have had three novels and two poetry books published, with another on the way; I have a wonderful group of writer friends, I curate a monthly poetry night in Reading and I spend my days doing what I love. Moreover, my son’s wedding went well (see picture) and I still have writer-hope; it’s small and fragile but, using the right lens I can see it sitting next to my laptop, its bright eyes shining.

 

BUSINESS OF BOOKS: TAKE FOUR WRITERS – DIVIDING, EDITING, DREAMING AND TOURING

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CLAIRE DYER: DIVIDING

This month I’d like to talk about my ‘other’ life. I see myself as both a poet and a novelist and people often ask which I prefer being. My answer is always that I like them both the same. However, there are big differences in the way poetry and fiction are published and so this does inevitably alter things.

For a start a poem is a constantly changing thing. Even when it’s been in print, a poet can change elements of his/her poem when it’s republished or collated in a collection. Secondly, putting together a collection takes YEARS! Novelists think it takes an age to get a book published, but collections of poetry can take mini-lifetimes. My last one, ‘Interference Effects’ kindly published by the very wonderful Two Rivers Press took five years from being a spark in my eye to a book in my hand.

The collection I’m working on at the moment contains poems first written in 2014, the manuscript is due to be delivered to the very wonderful Two Rivers Press in June 2020 and it will be a further year or so before possible publication. And this is fine because it takes patience, love and a whole heap of courage to be a poet. However, all this fades to nothing when a line comes that sets your hairline fizzing or you stand in front of an audience and read something that makes them laugh, gasp or (even better) weep.

Poetry books may be slim, time-consuming, delicate and easily lost in the noise of mass paperback sales, but they are things of beauty nonetheless.

 

LUCY COLEMAN: COUNTING

Finally welcoming in the good news this month, as a loved one is out of intensive care. It feels like a dark shadow has been lifted and the sun can shine again. Miracles can happen!

I’ve hardly moved from my desk with line edits and a cover reveal for A Greek Affair, in preparation for its release on the 28 December 2018 by Harper Impulse. And copy edits for The Writing Retreat on the Italian Lake, due for release on 5 February 2018 by Aria Fiction.

And my first audio book, for The French Adventure, is due out on 29 November 2018.

The good news keeps on coming and there’s even more, but authors get used to sitting on things for a while. So, my lips are sealed. But after the darkest of Octobers, I feel that Christmas has come early and I’m truly counting my blessings!

 

ANGELA PETCH: DREAMING

What about a monthly report starting with:  I’ve been dozing in my hammock on the island of Zanzibar, wondering what to do next. Ha ha! More like – I’ve been wondering how on earth to tackle my to-do list.

“Mavis and Dot” are on a blog tour and I’m relieved my two ladies/babies are appealing to readers. When you read comments from complete strangers like: “I could really see this gem of a book as a fantastic movie…”; “A must read…”; “This book was a total joy from beginning to end…” your heart has to sing. It justifies hours of sitting hunched over a pc. This month has been a mine-field of formatting issues but lovely authors have helped.

But I’m a hybrid and have just come off the phone from a chat with my editor at Bookouture. No peace for the wicked: I have major edits to carry out on my re-write of “Tuscan Roots”.

Where’s that hammock?

 

JACKIE BALDWIN: TOURING

November has been fairly busy as I have been on a Deadly Intent tour around some of the many libraries in Dumfries and Galloway with my partner in crime, Lucy Cameron. It’s been a lot of fun getting out and about to meet readers and some of the libraries have totally spoiled us. In Wigtown, for example, we were all treated to freshly baked scones with jam and cream!

As part of Book Week Scotland, we’re reading along with some other authors at a gin/rum night at The Selkirk Arms in Kirkcudbright, which, coincidentally, is where my second novel, Perfect Dead, is set.

On 29th November, I’ll be on a wee jaunt to Edinburgh for Noir at the Bar which is always a fun night and a chance to discover some great new crime authors.

Finally, I’m pleased to report that my third novel is firmly back on track after all the thrashing about with it last month. I’ve now nailed down the plot which nearly got the better of me and I’m pushing on through the first draft.

See you next month!

 

 

 

BUSINESS OF BOOKS: TAKE FOUR WRITERS – DOWN, DEEPER, DOWN – AND LIGHT

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LUCY COLEMAN

It’s been an emotional month. With a close family member in ICU for over two weeks and still critical, our hearts have been breaking. In the middle of this my other half and I had stomach flu and then structural edits arrived on my desk. The bug cut our hospital vigil short, so we text and support the ‘supporters’ by phone.

Aside from passing on messages to the wider family, my way of coping is to write. I channelled all that emotional turmoil into my edits and then into my current work in progress. All we can do is pray for a good outcome and when you can’t physically be there to help, it’s important to keep busy.

Writing for me is escapism. But I don’t avoid the harsher side of life and most of my novels reflect the mixed bag fate dishes out. What I’ve learnt this month is that there is a lot of kindness and love in this world, and often it comes from strangers – nurses and doctors who are there when you most need them. It’s truly humbling and a remind of how precious life is.

 

CLAIRE DYER

And so I’ve been faced with something that can bring a chill to any author’s heart – the rewrite. I have written a novel. It has been seen by quite a few people and one of these people has suggested that it would be stronger, better, more commercial were I to … It’s quite a long list!

But rather than recoil, I find myself embracing the challenge. They’re right. The book will be stronger, better, more commercial if I make the suggested changes. The only problem is, can I? Not as in may I, or do I want to, but am I able to? It seems a huge task. Six strands need editing, all the possible knock-on effects of these edits need to be spotted to ensure consistency; I have to match the tone, voice, spirit of the original even though time has passed and other things have crowded into my mind.

And so I’m going in. Will let you know how I get on!

STOP PRESS: some weeks have passed and I think I’m done. The six strands have been buffed, honed, added to, had stuff deleted from and I’m exhausted. I’ve re-read the book what seems like a gazillion times. I’ve loved it and I’ve hated it. I’ve wept from despair, and also because the story has come from somewhere deep within where a lot of sadness is. It is a different beast from the novel I started two years ago and I too am altered. I hope we’ve both changed for the better, but only time will tell. I have certainly valued the experience in a bizarre sort of way. However, now it has to go off into the world and we all know what that means …!

 

JACKIE BALDWIN

There have been many highs in this writing year but this month has not been amongst them. I discovered that my lovely Golden Retriever, Poppy, who has just turned six, is terminally ill and not expected to be with us long. A real blow to us all. As a result, I don’t have much in the way of news as I have been staying close to home.

I have been tying myself into knots over the plot in my third book and may well have to abandon it completely and start again. I’ve been thinking about it so hard I might have broken my brain. This must be what writer’s block feels like, a creeping paralysis of creative thought. I have to believe that it will pass and the pieces will gradually fall into place.

I hope that by this time next month I will be writing up a storm again!

 

ANGELA PETCH

The mountainside is a picture of fiery golds and rich reds as we start to pack up our Italian house for winter. We might return for New Year, which is celebrated in Italy with delicious feasts. Maurice and I enjoyed a much-needed five-day break last week in the Abruzzo region, walking up the majestic Gran Sasso, visiting devastated hill-top towns in this earthquake area.  I have a fascination for ruins and they will feature in my third Tuscan novel, very much in the planning and research stages. While we were away, no writing was done. And that is good, but my mind was still absorbing sights, sounds and new ideas.

Mavis and Dot is going on a blog tour with Rachel’s Random Resources in mid-November, so I’ve been busy with interviews and making the final decision about the cover. I’m really pleased with it and I used a professional designer this time. Watch this space.

 

 

TAKE FOUR WRITERS: TEACHING, THANKING, VENTURING, BOPPING

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CLAIRE DYER… TEACHING

This month I want to talk about what teaching teaches me. Like many other authors I don’t actually spend ALL my time sitting in splendid isolation in a writing garret. In fact, I spend precious little time actually writing, as life tends to get in the way!

And, one such distraction is teaching Creative Writing at Bracknell & Wokingham College. Whilst I relish the chance to encourage and inform my students, what is of perhaps greater benefit to me is the chance to practise what I preach. In my Beginners’ classes we cover the basics tools of writing and in my Improvers and Advanced classes, we take this up a notch. And what I find is that in teaching these topics I get a timely reminder to apply the techniques we cover to my own writing.

I also give my students examples of my early work to critique and this shows me how awful some of the stuff I used to produce actually was! A salutary reminder to keep the writing muscle flexed and working and mark my own writing much as a teacher would: 6 out 10 Claire, could do better. See me after class!

 

LUCY COLEMAN…. THANKING

It’s been a month in which to be very grateful and to say thanks, by running a series of competitions for my amazing readers.

With Lucy Coleman’s ‘The French Adventure’ wearing best seller flags in the Holiday Romance charts in Australia and Canada, hitting #53 in the main UK Kindle chart, and #1 in the iBooks Romance chart, I did celebrate.

One glass of wine, toasted by my other half, then straight back to work because it’s been a month of non-stop writing.

Next up? 4th September 2018 Lucy’s second novel will be released. Still no cover and the excitement builds… but I can share the title for the FIRST time: ‘Snowflakes Over Holly Cove’.

My Christmas stories are never solely about Christmas, but this one has a dusting of snow and a lot of heart. And it was written last summer, but it wasn’t quite as hot as this July!

 

ANGELA PETCH… VENTURING

Writers live within their heads most of the time, amongst imagined scenes and characters. In Italy, far from distractions, I have plenty of time to dream up plots and conflicts. But sometimes, like a tortoise, I need to pop my head out of my carapace and venture into the real world.

So, last week I boarded a plane from Bologna for Leeds and my first RNA Conference. All apprehensions were swept away as soon as I entered Leeds Trinity University and was warmly welcomed. It was a buzzing weekend, packed with interesting and sometimes hilarious talks (how to write sex scenes foremost), food and wine a-plenty and many new friendships. How good it was to talk writing without the fear of boring non-writers. I pitched to three different publishers and came away from Bookouture and Harper Collins with encouraging advice.

Back in Sussex, I joined self-published fellow CHINDI authors as we held our ghost tour around the fascinating seaside town of Littlehampton.

This tortoise is almost ready to retreat again. But first of all, I have granny duties. Our fifth grandchild is due any day now. I feel a children’s story coming on.

 

JACKIE BALDWIN… BOPPING

Hello again! The first half of this month I spent in Greece hiking, swimming and reading books, which was a welcome change. A few days after I returned it was time to go to Harrogate Crime Festival! I was also lucky enough to be invited to read at Noir at the Bar on the Thursday evening along with some amazing authors. The venue at The Blues Bar was packed with readers, writers and bloggers so the audience was amazing!

Highlights of the festival for me included hearing John Grisham interviewed by Lee Child and bopping away to ‘Fun Lovin’ Crime Writers,’ including Val McDermid and Mark Billingham, I also loved the New Blood panel. I shall be sneaking new books into the house the way other women sneak in shoes!

I had such a great time that I have already paid a deposit for next year!

 

 

 

 

REVIEWING THE PERFECT CRIME

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Jane Cable reviews the latest novel by one of Frost’s four writers

As regular readers of this column will know, to my shame I don’t read many books. The problem being that when I’m in my own characters’ heads I don’t want to be in anyone else’s. And with a good book I like to totally immerse myself in the world that the author has gone to so much effort to create.

It speaks volumes for Jackie Baldwin’s Perfect Dead, set in a freezing Scottish winter, that I actually felt cold reading it during a Cornish heatwave. I saw the ice on DI Farrell’s windscreen, experienced the damp chill of the remote cottage where the murder victim, artist Monro Stevenson, is found. The setting was brought so vividly to life that I was actually walking through the streets of the little coastal village, the salt tang of the sea in my hair, and driving down twisting lanes to remote country houses.

I have to admit that crime fiction is not my usual genre these days, although I do rather love watching re-runs of Midsomer Murders (I won’t call it a guilty pleasure because I fundamentally refuse to accept that any pleasure should be guilty). Cosy crime. Count the murders, find out who did it, save the last potential victim in a dramatic crisis then all go home for a cup of cocoa. Perfect. But not Perfect Dead.

What I am never sure about is whether it’s a good or a bad thing to be able to guess the perpetrator. Writing mysteries myself, I know only too well how hard it is to seed the story with just the right number of red herrings and clues. And Baldwin has a superb red herring in Perfect Dead – one I didn’t see coming until right at the last moment and which adds an extra layer of emotion to what is already an intense and gripping story.

This is a book where the characters’ internal journeys are as much an incentive to read on as solving the crime. Not just DI Farrell, working with the pull of the Catholic church in and around him, but the issues in the lives of his various colleagues are beautifully drawn and you find yourself caring as much about how these work out as you do about having the murderer brought to justice.

Perfect Dead is the second book in the DI Frank Farrell series so the characters’ lives are bound to pan out over time. This, and the quality of Baldwin’s writing, would in itself be enough to bring readers back for book three and my one argument with the Perfect Dead is that a major strand is left hanging, and far from being intrigued it left me feeling frustrated and a little short changed.

There’s something else I’ve discovered about crime books during this process – it is almost impossible to write a review of any length without giving away spoilers. So I won’t. Read the book for yourself and find out what happens. I promise you it’s worth it.

 

TAKE FOUR WRITERS: RECOVERING, COMPLETING, REVIEWING, CHARTING

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ANGELA PETCH… RECOVERING

I spent time with my characters on their bench by the sea and they told me the rest of their stories. I’ve 95% finished the first draft of “Mavis and Dot” and very soon the editing slog will start. Beta-readers and illustrator are on board and deadlines are in place with blog tours and an author week arranged for mid-November. I’ve also booked a December 1st launch in Worthing (the location for my book) and contacted Cancer Research for support – (I am donating profits to this organisation, so fingers-crossed I make some.

In the midst of all this planning, I ended up in hospital with a warning. My memory disappeared for a few hours; a stroke or tumour was suspected. However, a brain scan revealed all was well (some would disagree!) I need to slow down. My writing is for fun – anything else is a bonus.

“If you listen to your body when it whispers, you won’t have to hear it scream.”

 

JACKIE BALDWIN… COMPLETING

Hello. This month I finished my line edit and answered all those squirmy plot questions. Things are starting to gather momentum now. I’ve been told that my cover reveal will be happening on the Killer Reads page at 8pm on Sunday 29th April which is exciting! I’ve had a few days off as I wait for the copy-edit to arrive. Once that is finished the book will be in its final form.

Tasting freedom, I’ve been gallivanting in the Lake District and up visiting The Kelpies near Falkirk.

I’ve also started planning my blog tour with Love Books Group. It will start on 15th June when the book is released and last two weeks. I’ll need to prepare guest posts and Q/A’s for that. The day after it ends I’m off to a Greek island to stitch my shredded nerves together with my long suffering husband.


CLAIRE DYER… REVIEWING

So, after the launch and after the blog tour come the reviews!

I’ve long thought that writing is an odd thing to do. You spend a year or two writing a novel, editing it, rewriting it, editing it again, doing copy edits, checking covers, planning the PR and then there’s one glorious day when you hold the book in your hand and think, ‘Crikey, it’s a real thing and it’s going to go out into the world and (hopefully) be read by others.’ It’s a bit like hoping people will like your kids when they leave home and strike out on their own.

And, as much as we don’t like people passing judgement on our children, authors do need reviews of their books. I always do them for novels I’ve enjoyed and it’s a wonderful way to support authors and their publishers. Doing shout-outs on Twitter, popping up a 5* on Amazon and/or Goodreads is a lovely way to show support for the writing community. And, if I didn’t enjoy a book so much, I tend to keep quiet. Not because I don’t believe in freedom of speech, because I do, but because I don’t think giving a negative review is helpful. Reading tastes are so subjective, after all.

I would, however, like to thank all the lovely people who’ve left reviews of ‘The Last Day’ and who’ve messaged me privately to say they’ve enjoyed reading it. These are, naturally, the judgements I do like!

 

LUCY COLEMAN… CHARTING

It’s been a month of celebrating and being grateful for reader power. Amazon is only one of the online market places but it’s a useful measure. An eye-catching cover and a tantalising book blurb are essential, but reviews are a major influencer.

A reader apologised to me recently for the fact that she only writes very short reviews. Always five stars and a simple statement of appreciation. I wish I could have jumped through the monitor to hug her, because EVERY positive review is a blessing.

This month ‘The French Adventure’ soared up the charts and peaked at a dizzying #81 in the overall Amazon UK Kindle chart. Having passed that top 100 magical number before, I always wonder ‘Will the readers take me there again?’

As a reader, never underestimate YOUR power – your voice counts, so let your favourite authors know that and they will keep on writing.

TAKE FOUR WRITERS: CELEBRATING, TOURING, SPINNING & FACE-PLANTING

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MARCH UPDATE FROM OUR FOUR WRITERS…

LUCY COLEMAN… CELEBRATING

March 1st began with a roar – the Beast from the East arrived but it just happened to be the day I started writing my fourth novel for Aria Fiction. Thankfully, after last month’s stressful IT problems, my new office set up is now working well.

The arrival of the snow was perfect timing, though, as my new WIP is a Christmas story and it helped set the scene perfectly!

I was also able to take time out to celebrate my first release with Aria. As the reviews begin to roll in this has been a month of counting my blessings. So many wonderful readers and bloggers have shown support for my first book writing as Lucy Coleman, that I have been overwhelmed.

But now my newest cast of characters are calling and I’m in writing heaven again. Have a lovely Easter and I hope to see you here again next month!  

CLAIRE DYER… TOURING

The two weeks after the publication of The Last Day saw myself and my book on tour.

Each day one lovely blogger would host us on their blog, either including a feature by me or a Q&A designed by them and answered by me. And each day I’d eagerly anticipate the tweet that would alert me to the fact that the post was public, click on the link and scroll down the page, my heart in my mouth, until I found their review of the novel.

I can assure you this was a really scary moment because their good opinion means so much. Bloggers are amazing people. They champion writers and novels and promote reading by their enthusiasm and love of all things book-related. Between us, The Dome Press and I were lucky enough to be hosted by 16 bloggers who each brought a unique insight into what The Last Day is about and how it resonated with them. I learned a great deal about my book by reading their reviews and am eternally grateful to them for each and every one.

 

ANGELA PETCH… SPINNING

You know that feeling when you are chasing your tail? It seems like you’re achieving zilch? “…Busy doin’ nothin’ working the whole day through…”? I have lots of plates spinning at the moment.

I’ve established “Write Away in Tuscany” for September 11th to 18th and found a fab tutor to run the morning classes for this course. I’ve scouted for help with covers that need revamping since Endeavour Press went into liquidation. People’s Friend encouraged me to write a serial and I had three more stories accepted. I’m co-writing a ghost book for Littlehampton Festival. I gave a talk to Ferring book club and accepted a bigger talk in Chichester in April. I attended the Southern Book Show and “networked”. And poor Mavis and Dot? They are sitting on a bench on the prom somewhere, waiting for me to write their fate in the last two chapters.

Oh yes – and I went to Snowdonia for five days to escape.

 

JACKIE BALDWIN… FACE-PLANTING

Hello, again. What have I been up to this month? Editing again! This time it is a line-edit where you really get down to the nitty-gritty. Repetitions are identified and eliminated. Very Special Forces! Someone goes to dinner and vanishes into a space time continuum for five days. Your characters leap to wild, insane conclusions and you have to go back and put the seeding in earlier on. You get the drift. The absolute opposite of fun! Right now, going to Tesco, doing the ironing, even cleaning the bathroom, seem sparkling with allure. Feeling the pressure as my book, Perfect Dead, is due out on 15th June and I still have a copy-edit to go through too. My mood was not improved by doing a total face plant in Dumfries High Street yesterday. I look like I’ve been in a bare knuckle fight and lost!